CLUB CHAMPS!

[loz]

WELL DONE to every1 who competed over the weekend at the club champs! thankyou to every1 who organised it and a BIG thankyou to Colin Harrison you're so funny! and made it really good fun!!

lauren

[aidan]

I agree it was a really good / fun event & well done to all the youngsters (& not so young ones) who took part.

There were less participants than in previous years & I wondered whether anyone might venture some ideas how we can make sure that next year is better attended.

I know there were a few clashes which affected attendance (school trips / other sporting events). I also have my own feelings that the poor weather this year may have been a contributory factor & discouraged some youngsters from training over the summer months, which in turn had a knock on effect on club champs.

However, if we take 2004 as an example, there was a large contingent of vet / senior athletes [13 men] who had a go (including me & a few other dads together with some who normally only compete on the road circuit).

Perhaps some of the dads / mums need to lay down the challenge now & try and get themselves fit for next year? You have just under 12 months!!! It is something to aim for. I will be ready with my stop watch next year for you - Though if I can get myself fit enough I may well be running / throwing & jumping myself.

Aidan.

[petercrook]

Firstly, well done to those athletes who did compete.

The reason for the poor turn out, I shall hazard a few guesses.

Greeters: Do we have any? My own daughter first came to the Harriers the Thursday before the Club Champs, a few years ago. Margaret Collins, seeing she was new, approached her and myself, told us about the club champs and convinced us what a fun weekend it was. She really sold the whole club to us. We already had plans for the Saturday, but turned out on the Sunday, joined the club, entered the competition, had fun (despite the appalling weather) and as they say the rest is history. Had Margaret not convinced us, perhaps it would have been another of those activities, my daughters tried and gave up after a few weeks.

Elitism: I fear we protray an image of elitism at the club. Do we really encourage our less talented athletes to compete. Do we put potential athletes off by only having newspaper reports that glorify the talented and have no mention of a youngster, who has given their all without much success. Club records and medals, are fantastic and should be rightly recognised, but personally I'd rather read about an 11 year old who finished 9th in a field of 12 and got a new pb. The record breakers and medal winners will still be at the club in years to come, the ninth placed athlete may not be, unless of course they receive some recognition. Check out our Mid Lancs Cross Country reports, they generally tell you how 37th place Athlete X's strong run helped the club achieve second place in the latest match. The truth may be stretched, but one thing I know is having seen their name in lights, they'll be back for the next match, trying even harder and eventually becoming an asset to the club.

With the very odd exception, the club champs were contested by the Young Athletes teams and a small number of under 11's. A good team will never win you anything, a good squad will. Over the past couple of seasons it is my belief that with a bigger squad we would have qualified for the YAL final. Our lack of depth becomes evident, when a small number of athletes are unavailable for one reason or another.

It is a knock on effect of not keeping more athletes involved at a younger age. We can do this by protraying the Championships as more of a fun event than a championships, "goody bags for all", not just medals for a few.

Dave and Aidan do a great job on a Thursday, with the under 11's and the turn out seems good, so why so few under 11's in the club champs. If they did'nt enjoy athletics they would'nt be there week in week out. Is it the fear of trying hard for no reward, against athletes they know are faster, stronger and can leap further than them.

Unfair Competition It is apparent that the middle distance squads, both junior and senior, with the odd exception, don't compete once they are over 15. Up to this age they are the mainstay of the competition, trying their hand at every event and generally with a smile on their face. Attempting to throw a shot or a javelin, or jumping into a sand pit, having in most instances not jumped or thrown since the previous September. They know they can't win the competition but they treat it purely as fun. Perhaps they don't have the same win at all costs mentalitly as other squads, at that age.

Due to the increased events in age groups, a typical combined eventer no longer has to run a middle distance race to even qualify for their 10 star badge. A middle distance athlete has to throw or jump, to achieve their's. To medal in the championships, the combined eventer does not need to run a distance race. Bizarre when they can't opt out of one in major Championship.

To sum up. Up to the age of 14, they are happy to have a go at everything, after that as they get older and wiser, they either treat it as training session for their own event or just don't bother competing at all.

Timetable I watched two talented under 17's jog the 1500m, their preferred event. When I asked them why, they said they had run the 400m, minutes earlier. The 3000m the following day was within ten minutes of the 800m finishing. It's a bit like asking a combined eventer to alternate between the high jump and long jump.

I am led to believe it's the reason, many of the seniors did'nt bother and why the older and wiser junior also opted out of the Championships.

Scrap The Club Champs Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of admiration for our multi talented athletes and their coaches, and rightly it is they who win the Championships. Lets face it we all know in it's current format, which one or two athletes, will contest the title's in each age group. Do we really need a two day competition at the end of the season to tell us.

Personally, I would replace the club champs, with an under 9's to under 13's championship held in May, organised by the club. Let's get all the coaches and officials on hand and throw it open to all the schools in the Preston, South Ribble and Lancaster areas.
Really push hard for every school to enter. The schools can pay an entry fee to cover the costs and we can donate trophies and prizes. I'm sure between us we could get it sponsored.

It would be our best opportunity to get more youngsters involved in athletics from an early age, which would surely be of more long term benefit to the club than the Club Champs in their current format.

This is only my opinion, it is not a criticism of any member of the club and my views, may well be shared by no-one else, but as my old Grandad used to say,

"Two men looked through prison bars,
One saw mud, the other stars"

[aidan]

Greeters - yes good idea and the committee are looking to re-introduce this concept / role. Mags is going to come down to track & we have a few parents in mind who we think would be good at it. Unfortunately we may be a little late for this season. Any volunteers for next year would be made more than welcome and shown what is involved.

Elitism - I don't know whether this is valid. If this relates to press reports etc. I know whenever I have written anything I look for something beyond just the statistics to make it more interesting. PB's are something that I concentrated on for one of the Mid Lancs reports and the availability on stats on individual athletes on Power-of-10 has made this more possible than it ever had been before - but it still requires a lot of research. I'm sorry but it is generally easier to focus on who has achieved points, won medals or achieved graded performances.

Unfair competition - if we continue to have club champs the week before English Schools Combined Events then it could be that the best combined eventers are likely to be missing. Pete H believes that competing in a number of events the week before English Schools is not a good idea. Whilst I have only a couple of years experience of combined events I think he might have a valid point. The overall aggregate points awards are not the only awards from club champs though - there are awards for the most improved athlete based on their score this year compared to last & awards for the best overall individual girls and boys performances - these are decent trophies and do not favour one type of athlete over another.

Timetable - I don't know what rest period there was between 400m & 1500m, but the whole schedule including track breaks is designed to give sufficient recovery. If this didn't actually happen on the Saturday we need to perhaps keep a better eye on race start times next year and keep a log of when we start each race. I remember two lads coming through the finish line together and they didn't seem to be taking it particularly seriously - if this was because they didn't feel they had had enough recovery before the 1500m why on earth didn't they say something prior to the race.

I think the U11 numbers have suffered because we had to move their training to 17:30 on a Thu due to clash with training for seniors and older juniors - I know it is not easy for working parents to get their children there this early from my discussions with them. Also we had a significant drop off of U11 numbers after several consecutive weeks of dreadful weather on Thursdays. For club champs we actually had a reasonable proportion of those U11's that have attended regularly over the summer.

Cheers

Aidan.

[Rob Morley]

Wow there's a bit of food for thought above. As it was the first Club Champs for me I'm not sure I'm qualified to respond to all the issues raised. One thing I would like to throw into the pot on this is more reward for participation.

I would like to see campaign medals issued. Say for instance if an athlete turns out for 5 of the 6 Mid Lancs X country fixtures they would be rewarded with a medal. As Pete says a bigger squad will probably lead to a better team, which will probably lead to higher team finishes and better retention of athletes in the sport.

Let's reward our younger athletes - other sports do. I've seen trophies given out at Football just for being in that team for a season, and certificates in Netball. Obviously the criteria for receiving rewards in each Team needs to be discussed, agreed and then the athletes informed. This approach has been successful in athletics and I am happy to discuss this further with anyone if required.

[aidan]

Hi Rob,

For all junior athletes that completed a pentathlon or decathlon there are star awards (badges / certificates) given out at presentation evening. Pete H & Dave Tate spend a lot of time wading through every performance and calculating the appropriate award - ordering the badges and printing the certificates.

In addition there are then prizes for the first three based on aggregate points scores in each age group, most improved athlete based on points improvement on last year's aggregate score and for the best overall male & female performance in any individual event at club champs (this is calculated with regard to AAA grades - so it can be won by any athlete in any junior age group - provided the event has a AAA grading)

[Pete Benson]

Interesting to hear from Peter Crook about greeters this is one of the most important jobs within the club.

Mags Collins was very special in this role, virtually impossible to replace but replace you must do even though you will struggle to beat her quality in this role.
Thanks to Mags during my time as
Chairman.

Pete Benson

[andy]

The two lads in the 1500m had around 1 min rec after the 400m they had to jog from the finish line straight to the start line, which ment they then jogged thier main event of the day.They did ask if they could wait and run after the girls but they were told no they had to run, even if they had waited for the girls race that still isnt enough recovery after one of the hardest events.
We discussed changing the time table two years ago but we were told no, the 800m and 3000m run together is stupid and needs changing so that the 800m is the first event of the day, if the time table isnt changed then more athletes will stop doing the championships as they get older just as Pete has stated.

[aidan]

Andy,

Sorry but it can't possibly have been as you have described. Pat Jackson started the 400m races from about 10m short of the finishing line. Her and Dave then had to move the starters stand round the track to the 1500m start. We didn't have two starters working alternately - we only had one gun that worked!

I'm prepared to accept that the two lads may have had insufficient recovery and we need to make sure we look at that for next year and make sure it isn't repeated.

[Rival Harrier]

how long does it take to move a starters stand

[aidan]

Obviously not long - I reckon if we take Pat's leisurely 120m walk round the track dragging the starter's stand, plus when she arrived at the 1500m start & whistled we would have had to find the chief timekeeper (Bob W) and tell him that Pat had whistled. If I remember rightly the gun then didn't go off first time for the 1500m - time to check the gun etc.

but the point I was trying to make is that the lads who did the 400m certainly did not have to jog from the finish to the start of the 1500m.

Though it conjures up a nice image of Pat running round the track dragging a starter's stand in competition with the lads to the start of the 1500m - perhaps we should introduce it as an event?

[Andy Leat]

erm does anyone know when presentation night is?? Just so that i can book it off work!

[stevemort]

Presentation Evening is on Friday 9th November at Preston Grasshoppers

[aidan]

I can't find a minimum time for recovery between a 400m & a 1500m - probably because it doesn't exist. But rule 166.7 of IAAF rules states:

"The following minimum times must be allowed, when practicable,
between the last heat of any round and the first heat of a subsequent
round or final:
Up to and including 200m - 45 minutes
Over 200m up to and including 1000m - 90 minutes
Over 1000m Not on the same day"
Might be worth remembering if ever you are asked to run a final too close to your semi at say county champs etc.

It does however suggest that probably we should allow allow over an hour between 400m & 1500m for those that are intending to run both events.

Whilst writing & I think we should now drop the 400m / 1500m debate (I accept the time between was too short), the following ideas are from Judith Deakin with regard to club champs:

"My own thoughts at the present time are that we should stop calling it the club champs. If we have such a poor turn out, it isn't actually a club champs! I suggest a single day called perhaps a 'Sprint, jump, throw fest(ival)' and run the middle distance events on a series of Wed evenings (MIDDLE OF THE WEEK!) through the summer. I also think champs awards should be based on performance throughout the season, at certain events....Northern league, YAL. Mid Lancs. for example and not on a single weekend when, to be quite honest, lots of people( including officials, have had enough of hovering around athletics tracks! This should encourage participation in these matches.
I am aware that we already have awards based on performance, improvement etc and also badges for the youngest athletes, so there should be something for everybody to aim for and I think that this is essential.
Just a few thoughts. What do you think?
See you
Judith"

I have heard other thoughts regarding moving club champs to the last weekend in September - what do you think? A number of clubs have a combined events competition the last weekend in September - e.g. at Exeter Arena. Do the middle distance group want to see a different kind of competition - e.g. range of middle distance races held throughout September on Wednesdays??

[petercrook]

An interesting point regarding recovery Aidan, that anything over 1000m should be run on a seperate day.

A point we covered in the Lancashire selectors thread. The Schools run a heat and final within a few hours in the 1500m and our selectors still stick rigidly to the qualifying time.

Secondly, I doubt very much many middle distance runners would want the Club champs pushing back. It may well suit combined eventors, whose season is over apart from the occasional indoor meeting, bit for middle distance athletes, it's a week or two before they start the cross country season.