Northern League a total shambles

[Carl]

First of all I want to congratulate all the athletes who competed today, fantastic effort. I want to thank all the athletes, officials and everyone involved in todays match at the arena. It was an inspiration to be finally in a team that wanted to do well.

That says it all though doesn't it? I apologise now for comments made from hear on in that people may take offence at but lets face something needs to be done.

In my view this clubs ego has got far too big, it isn't even good. In the grand scheme of things the 'famous' or the 'great' Preston Harriers is no longer impressive. I speak on behalf of the sprints group I am involved in.

For TWO FULL SEASONS we have given everything we can, won everything, not lost a race. NOT ONE. Yet as a club we are relegated AGAIN. I am sick of hearing excuses, 'well our athletes are always double booked' bla bla bla. Who's bloody fault is it? Why did we enter the junior league? Why? It isn't needed. 'Well its a good step up' ..........total crap. These athletes going through our self made tripe are going to end up in the senior league with nothing to run for. Division 2/3 god help us if it got to 4.

From a personal perspective what is the point in me carrying on at the club? I have options available too me in the top division of athletics in the country. Or division 3 northern league. Nothing this season has inspired me to stay with the club i was once so proud to say i was a member of. I was getting ripped to shreds by Blackburn boys, BLACKBURN..........

Yes, we are good, not excellent, but good at young athletes level, and that is positive. We are only average in a league (NJL) we were for some reason to desperate to join. And we are absolutely awful at the level that really matters in athletics. Not a sole gives a damn about what happens when athletes are young. Unless as a club we are a 'want to be' big fish in the massive ocean? This is no jibe at all at our young athletes or the managers. I hope the good job is continued into the future. they then filter into our brilliant idea of a junior league where we aren't so impressive and then from that they hit the shambolic crap that is the only team i can be involved in.

I'm sick of hearing all this athlete centered nonsense as well? Does it look like we are? When i was 14/15 I was competing in the Senior league and I was proud too be with the 'big boys'. Maybe we are 'young athlete' centered.

At Sale I get phone calls - e-mails 4 weeks at least beforehand checking my availability for the forthcoming match. At Preston its maximum 5days. Its no wonder we cant get a team out is it? The club is drifting and not going forward anymore in my eyes.

I am not saying I could I do better, and i appreciate its a tough job, but I think its about time the people who have the authority, I will name names if asked, have a good long think about what there roles are.

Something is badly wrong, I thought one relegation would be enough to make you lot realise but obviously not. Maybe two will, or maybe it might just be too late. I will be advising my sprinting colleagues to join another club to get better competition for next season. If they follow my advise it would be interesting to see if someone enforced the ban? If they did it wouldn't surprise me.

Today is a very disappointing day for some, SOME of the club. Others know it could be prevented and should be very very careful about future moves.

[Seany V]

As I have not much time right now, i will comment further tomorrow.
I very much agree with Carl. There is a handful of people who give it their all for PRESTON HARRIERS and get nothing in return. turn out to the meetings only to be let down by the rest of the club. I know for a fact I will not be wearin a preston harriers vest in any league meetings next year.
the sprintsgroup need a higher level of competition to progress in the sport. i dont believe preston harriers is too bothered about the athletes or anything to be honest. the club is a joke.
I have nobody to thank for, and i dont feel like preston harries have done anything for me, the only people i feel thankful for are pete dickinson and steve who invest their time on and off the track to discuss our training with us and pushing us further. and like carl said he receives phonecalls and emails.

has preston looked for any sponsors anywhere??? local companies??? doesnt seem like we have any sponsors. what is the club playing at..... more to follow
Seany V

[Adam Michell]

I agree

Young athletes will be wanting to quit because there is nothing to move onto afterwards, doing welll in the northern league could produce a butterfly effect and make the club a lot more competitive and increase standards even further. I'm sure more people would be attracted to the clubs success, giving the club greater depth and selection.

The most dedicated athletes will stay on in the sport to improve their personal performance. The average club runner who may be an awesome talent in the future may just quit because there's no progression or motivation at the club. At the end of the day it is and individual sport, but by working well as a team in the league it would improve performances at the club etc..

The poor league we are in could be a small contribution to young people dropping out of the club and don't carry on with the sport?

We need a way to keep the flow. Things would be awesome here if there was a real fight to get in the team.
Competition is what drives people forward, otherwise people just run within themselves.

I hope we can seriously move forward as a club.

[Pete H]

Firstly, like Carl, I want to thank all the athletes who turned out for us on Sunday. Most athletes were doing more events than they wanted, ‘mucking in’ to help the club stay up. Their efforts are appreciated.
OK Carl, the sprinters have done a great job for us this year. And they have been there, and ‘up for it’. Their presence has been a motivator for others and the competitive spirit you have shown has been great
BUT this is Male sprinters only, of course, and at best covering five events between them. 66 points out of the 293 scored.
We have got to improve the senior team. They are not – as a team – good enough.
But don’t run away with the idea that the sprinters are the only ones who care. That is just arrogance. What about Jackie Noblet, who regularly does 7 events for the team? And Phillippa Walsh, who seems to be the only female distance runner prepared to really run herself into the ground for the team.
We need throwers. Yesterday we had one female thrower – an under 17 competing for the second time – and one male – a coach prepared to put himself on the line for the team.
How do you think I feel? I was there to look after the team, deserting my own athletes competing at the AAA’s to do it. I get home and go on the website to be told I don’t care? And to be told the club has done nothing for one athlete who has paid no subs for two years?
The problem is that we do not have enough senior athletes, and more particularly not enough senior athletes who write the 4 dates in their diaries at the start of the season and want to be there to compete. Whatever you say, the club needs to bring athletes through to senior level. That is why we joined the Junior League. Those athletes operating at a high level do not have a problem making it to the senior team, but we need senior club athletes who will bust a gut for the team and fill events.
We probably would have been a more competitive senior team this year if we had no junior team, and that provides a potential short term solution. Trouble is, if you are the third ranked competitor in the club, and a junior, you will not get the competition. You will have to go elsewhere. And never get into the senior ranks.
Long term, I believe we have to develop SENIOR athletes. And give competition opportunities to all ages to arrive at that stage. To drop the junior league because it hurts the senior team is short term, and we need to think beyond that.
I appreciate your honesty, Carl, and I am at least as gutted as you are. But I will not be defeatist about it, and I honestly do not think I need to send my athletes elsewhere for appropriate competition. I want us back up in division 1, or better, using senior athletes we have developed through the club.
And if you know anyone wants the job of team manager, let me know. Those doing the job at present already have half a dozen other jobs in the club.
Finally, how come seniors think competing four times a year for the club is a major commitment, when officials do four times as much without complaint? They scored us 30 points again on Sunday

[carl]

Agreed on some points. Yes male sprinters only...although Sarah has recently been on an operating table and competes when she can. Pete you have more female athletes than most and I see them doing sprints training?Where were these athletes?

I agree that sprinters do not comprise all the team but I think on the balance of the last two seasons we have done more than our fair share. Yes Jackie has done a great job, again on Sunday her efforts were greatly appreciated. Yes, the same applies for Phillipa also. We do need throwers, you are right.

Pete in all honesty it seems to me that the northern league has been deserted. You might care but you may not care about the senior athletes enough and are once again 'young athlete centered'. Maybe this explains fall out levels which Adam discussed.

The problem may well be we don't have enough seniors but why haven't we even once tried to cover some cracks with a handful of younger athletes and sacrifice some of the other teams to ensure northern league status? Are we too proud of our young athlete team?

Pete if we can't get two athletes out how on earth can we get three? It makes it more competitive too, look at 'male' sprinters clambering for a place. Surely other athletes in the club will be the same? The points irrelevant anyway as we can't get two athletes out let alone three. Even if it was the case when have we ever in any team had the strongest side out? You know just as well as I do Pete, it happens once in a blue moon.

You won't be sending athletes away as you have few seniors, our group does though? Me, Sean, Sy, Tom, Sarah, Adam. Tom Riley is (was) interested in joining from the Isle of Man (top sprinter) but whats the point of that now?

What your saying Pete is that basically we need the NJL as a stepping stone, I appreciate this. Senior athletes won't turn out though if they see two relegations in a row because of the little support shown from other areas of the club. IE juniors.

[Sydey]

Hi all,

well..Im not to sure what to say as i've only been with the club just over a year and since i have been there i haven’t seen many sprinters come through the ranks to the seniors.

When I joined I started at the tender age of 24 yrs old! After 6 months I was already having my name talked about along side our senior’s sprinters like Carl, Sean, and Adam who carry this club in every event
they do. For me..coming into a 'big' club like Preston I should be working my backside off to make the team but it doesn’t appear to be like that. For me..to improve is to compete against the best but most of our
Younger sprinters are happy to do the junior league instead of making the step-up, since most of the time they know they can win in that event.

For example..from the top of my head.. I’m thinking Tom Batty. He is an excellent 100/200m sprinter who runs in the junior leagues and has come to senior level a few times but instead of putting him in the
senior ranks full time, we want him to win junior titles so we can all jump about and say wow look how good our juniors are but for him to really improve is it not best to have tom sprinting against other
sprinters at a higher level?!

What baffles me is that on nights that we train, I see other sprint groups training and see plenty of female sprinters..they prob out number us lads but at the events..they are no where to be seen! With us
being relegated why should up and coming starts like Carl and top coaches like Pete Dickinson and Steve James stay around. They train us hard and train us well, but I guess it makes no difference.

I am looking for work outside of athletics and most of the jobs are Manchester based. I know what I have learned thanks to my coaches and team mates has improved me to a standard I never thought was possible and could easily fit into a big club that would love to take me on and take me to the next level

But, I don’t wanna quit the Preston harriers club since we do have talent here, but for me being a really competitive and ambitious person in and out of athletics, if the club can’t share my points also..whats the point in me wasting what years I have left in me at Preston?!

I hope my views come across clear and I aint trying to be little anybody at the club, or anybody who works the backside off for the club for areas that I don’t know of but I'm happy this debate has come about as looking at what people have said..I'm not the only one voicing an opinion.

Sydey

[Pete H]

Carl
I know you are welol ticked off, but why blame the youngsters?
My athletes have been helping the seniors all season. They did 6 mens events and 8 womens on sunday. There were 3 high jumpers and 3 long jumpers and three triple at the weekend. Others like Emma, Katrina, Esther and Rachel all on holiday. They went when their leagues finished! All have done senior events this season. Jenny W is a senior coming back from 2 seasons injured, has been training for 4 weeks, but did 4 events for us. Jenny G did 5 events off 2 weeks training having been away at uni for 5 years. Sophie came after missing all season with Glandular fever, has been back 1 week. I think mine do their bit!
Throws and Hurdles for men are the gaps that don't get filled. U17's, juniors use different weights and have different heights/spacings. Without junior League a top hurdler like Miles will not have the opportunity to progress to Senior level. He would HAVE to leave to get competition. That is why Andy Robinson 'only' did 3 jumps and javelin.
How many events each did the sprinters do?
But it is not good enough for you to complain that juniors aren't helping enough, or that I am not interested in seniors. First, neither is true, and more importantly we have seniors who could be there and aren't. How do we get them on board and motivated?

[Carl]

Firstly Sy u raise excellent points, it shows the feelings are now reflected across at least a small cross section on the team.

Pete you have got the wrong end of the stick i do not blame juniors. Why blame the the junior athletes, when it clearly isn't there fault? I'm interested when you say 'there league finished!' clearly we have differing views. Maybe that is the problem though the club is divided as such that this system we have in place is very rigid and no room for any sort of maneuver.

This is all besides the point anyway, we can name athletes who turned up and did what all we want, the fact is whatever this were it weren't enough. Too many times there have been gaps. I go back to one of my original posts if I'm being asked five days beforehand if I'm available and it applies across the whole club/team then there is no wonder we are getting relegated.

I understand about weights and heights. miles wouldn't have to leave however as he is still young and a higher claim club surely could be an option available to him? Correct me if I am wrong. at the end of the day Miles may well leave anyway when we compete northern division three athletics.

The sprinters scored maximum points I believe in the 100, 200, 400 and both relays I'd assume thats more than any other section of the club too. Multiply this by 8 meetings and you have a lot of points that not one section of the club can say they have contributed as much to. The problem however wasn't Sunday as I clearly originally stated.

Pete its clear if we have an good young athletes team and an average NJL team that we should have an average Northern League team. Mistake me if I'm wrong but under 17's and 20's can compete n the league? I'm not saying bring everyone down but if needs be then lets see some new faces. It's a good experience no matter what. As i say i was 14/15 an running my behind off for that team.

Pete, 'you may not care about the senior athletes enough'. No mention of saying you don't care at all. Don't take this personally I direct this at the club again.

In answer to your final question, I want to see whoever is team manager checking availabilities 4 weeks before not 4 days. Give coaches and athletes a chance to make time. Thats a start. You should know better than me Pete, you have been in this far longer than me and I'm surprised you haven't hit the roof yet.

Make no mistake Pete I am very ticked off but I am not blaming you are any individual for this, I blame the clubs ethic as a whole.

[Seany V]

Sy does have excellent points. Personally i do not understand how so many athletes are happy competing against other athletes who they are capable of beating easily. I would much pefer to run against athletes who are better than I, so that i can learn from them and progress in my event.
Beating people of a lower standard is boring, not challenging and pointless.
I think a ballance needs to be found where younger athletes are slowly introduced to competing at senior level, do one or two meets for the senior league and the rest in races of their own age groups.
I would like to see more replies from other coaches and maybe people higher up in the club, and hear their opinions on the matters at hand and what the plans are for next season if there are any plans that is.
the way things are i dont think it will be worth entering a team in the northern league, because i dont think im willing to compete at such a low standard. yes i sound big headed but i am confident that i should be competing at least in division one if not BAL to push me for better times. Competing in Div 2 this year was bad enough, and not that i blame being in this league entirely for me not improving this season but i know would have been better for me personally to compete in a higher league.

I cannot say I see people at preston harriers as my team mates apart from the few individuals who really have worked hard doin several events at the northern league meetings. Respect to all of those and thank you. Going back to what carl said, the club's ethics need to be looked at.

I would like to know from all individuals who read this to answer this question just as i am curious to know what people think.
"What makes and athletics club successful?"

[salford]

Carl

I was in a situation similar to yourself some years ago & took the decision to move to Salford after half a dozen very poor regional relay performances. I have never regretted my decision at all although I was sad to leave. The structure at Salford matched your experience at Sale and it was made very clear to runners which were the target races, when they were & what was expected to make team. If you werent interested in those races then it was made clear you were probably wasting time joining in the first place. The president & team manager were in constant contact, helped motivate and ultimately made me a better athlete. I owe them a massive debt for helping me get my England vests. In life if you arent happy at work you look for another job....so if you are that unhappy then go.

It doesnt work for everyone though. Take examples of Dave Lewis. In the 80s Dave was one of the top dozen distance runners in the world yet remained very loyal to Rossendale Harriers & would often turn out for them in Mid Lancs leagues & local road relays. It worked for him & he could achieve what he wanted without being part of a major team. Closer to home take inspiration from Helen Clitheroe. Being at Preston hasnt harmed her career at all. I wasnt fortunate enough to be blessed with their talent & I accepted that my success could be achieved by being part of a bonded team. At Salford there werent any stars but a good group of quality athletes who all wanted the same thing. The problems at clubs like Preston seems to be that that the sprinters want one thing, the distance runners want another & their ambitions rarely match...its a traditional Harrier thing.

Make the decision thats best for you.....although teams are put together athletics remains primarily an individual sport & you need to do whats best for yourself. Remember the adage 'Man puts his hand in bucket of water. When he takes it out the space fills up' - Wether you stay or go the club will go on and new athletes will replace you. Dont take this personally but no athlete is bigger than the club. If you do choose to leave ensure its on good terms & be careful how vocal you are 'slagging' off other atletes just becasue their targets arent the same as yours

[Seany V]

I very much like the words of "salford" (Aidan, I believe). Well said and even though its directed at carl, im still going to take the advice on board for myself too.

[Carl]

I'll do what i need to, thank you for the advice. It frustrates me though massively when a club like Preston Harriers just drift.

[Not from Salford]

Thanks for your input Aidan yet again. Its nice to see as always you want to have your opinion heard when a situation being discussed has nothing to do with you and is a potentially touchy subject involving this club. Like you said in your post you left Preston Harriers and went to Salford to chase success. Its great you achieved what you wanted to achieve.
As far as Preston goes though I must admit I can understand and empathize with Carl and the sprinters. Ultimately, however it all comes down to organization and recruiting. I really think more structure is needed at the club and some of the younger members who have the enthusiam need to step up and become team managers etc and spark some life into the club. A team manager for track and individuals who take responsibility for each disipline, one for cross-country and one for roads. Also this sort of division between disciplines needs to be sorted out. I for one appreciate the hard work and effort the sprinters put in but equally the effort the distance runners put in and the field eventers as well. This us versus them mentality is not going to help this club move forward. If we are to become a real team and a real club we need to come together and work together. I would really like to hope that the sprinters who have come onto the board and voice there opinion will not leave before next summer and that as a club we can arrange a meeting and really get these things sorted out. Its great to see Carl and the sprinters have the kind of ambition to compete at the highest level and really with the young athletes we have coming through there is no reason we cannot compete with the best clubs in this country. This may seem like an over exaggeration but I honestly believe it to be something this club can attain. Sure we have some gaps to fill. We need to see some more female middle distance runners, we desperately need some added strength in terms of field events. We needs some male hurdlers and some individuals who are jump and steeple chase specialists. But this is soemthing that can be addressed.
Like I said though this all requires organization and an infrastructure at this club that at present is not in place. Perhaps instead of talking about this on the message board we need to arrange a meeting and really put a structure in place. Representative from every event in the club and I'm not just talking about people like Pete who already do so much but athletes themselves who are willing to take on the responsibility of dragging this club to a place where it belongs. We can talk all day long about mistakes we have made this season but when all is said and done Preston Harriers is a good club and a club full of talent but a dis-jointed organization, the only way forward is to address these issues at a meeting and ensure they don't re-occur. It may be cliche but in life it is often when you feel like you have hit rock bottom that your in the best position to see the faults you have made or the faults around you and have the best perspective to see clearly the best path forward. Enough of my rambling anyway. Let sort this out and ensure as a club that we can start moving in the right direction!!!

[Carl]

I don't know who this is but in regards to the comments to Aidan. I appreciate Aidans words and regardless of where they are or what context they are in, could prove to be valuable advice.

I'm interested to know whom this maybe though, we might as well name names.

[rick]

Aidan's comments were pretty even-handed IMO.